3:58 a.m. Tuesday, March 8th, 2022
It’s 30º out there, not bad.
A high of 41º is expected.
Good Morning Dear Saint,
I thought I’d recount my discussion with Eric, from yesterday, while it’s still fresh in my mind.
Eric is some ole time evangelical christian who defends eternal conscious punishment and/or annihilation.
But he will have nothing to do with universal salvation. Now, normally it’s not terribly important what these guys say or feel about God’s purpose. But in this case, Eric structured his reply to me in a striking way.
Here’s the deal:
He said something like “I can see the case for eternal conscious punishment. And, I can see bible verses saying annihilation, but no way on universal salvation.” — words to that effect.
Let’s break it down.
- the Bible teaches the sinner will be eternally tormented.
- the Bible teaches the sinner will be annihilated forever.
- the Bible teaches the sinner will be eventually reconciled to the Father.
I’m shocked, shocked, I say…
So, Eric can see a case for torment, or annihilation, but not for reconciliation… I mean he was adamant that NO, NO, NO, we can’t have the ultimate salvation of all, that will never do.
Puzzling. Very puzzling. He won’t commit to either endless torment or annihilation, but he’s quite sure that God will not or cannot save all. Hmmmm.
If the Bible’s teaching regarding final human destiny were clearly against some good outcome… one would think that Eric and his crew would be able to take a stand on endless torment… or absolute annihilation. But they can’t see either one clearly — but they are dang sure it’s not the salvation of the sinner…
What’s the deal here… why the focus on the sinner and not on the Savior?
Let’s put it this way…
He’s not sure if the sinner will be tormented forever.
He’s not sure if the sinner will be annihilated.
But he is sure the sinner will never come home to the Father.
The sinner might be tormented, he might be annihilated but he will never be reconciled.
I’m telling you saint of God, this view is very “sinner centered” and it’s not very “God centered”.
God is the creator of all.
God is the Father of all.
God is the savior of all.
And God who directs steps…. Just might direct the sinners’ steps home one day… (Note: the story of the prodigal son. — and also note, the story of the prodigal son was really a story about the Father.)
Eric, like many regular ole christians is very focused on the sinner and the sinner’s so-called “freewill”.
In my discussion with him, he ask for a scripture proving my position. I gave him Romans 5:18.
18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life’s justifying. 19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.
He flat out rejected my “proof text”. But he loved all of his proof texts that showed that God was either unable or unwilling to save all.
Eric was disturbed at the word ALL… and said that “all doesn’t mean all”.— words to that effect. He’s proof was that “All Jerusalem went out to see Jesus” was obviously an exaggeration… so there !!! So that means if the Bible says “All” will be saved, reconciled, justified, bow the knee, redeemed, conciliated, etc… you can just forget it… because “all” doesn’t always mean “all”.
Well, my reply is… “all” have sinned, right? He agreed. But “all” redeemed? He’ll have none of it.
We also got onto the topic of the eons. And of course he insisted that “aion” can and does in many cases mean ETERNAL. He was downright insulted when I made the case that the eons have a beginning (Hebrews 1:2 and Ephesians 3:11) and that the eons have an end (I Cor 10:11 and Heb 9:26).
You see, he wants to make sure that he and his pals get “eternal” life… for doing the right thing… as a reward. And he insists that the punishment of those who do the wrong thing are just as “eternal” as his “life” and rewards.
Oh, plus, he insists that God is eternal. And how dare I suggest that “AION” when applied to God means something less than “eternal”.
Well sir… as Hebrews 1:2 says, God made the eons in his Son. So, if God MADE the eons, then obviously God exists before the eons… so we can concede that God is “eternal”.
Plus… Ephesians 3:11 says God made the purpose of the eons in Christ… Ok, again… if God MADE the eons and the purpose of the eons, God existed BEFORE He made them, right? Let’s continue:
So if God MADE the eons, and brings the eons to a conclusion (I Cor 10:11, Hebrews 9:26) of course, God will not end when the eons end. So, what does it mean when the bible refers to THE EONIAN GOD ??? Is Eric right, does that mean THE ETERNAL GOD ???
Eric was suggesting that I’m saying God will end when the eons end. No silly rabbit. “EONIAN” is merely an adjective… reliant on the noun… from which it came.
Like “day” and “daily” — as in “daily bread”. The bread doesn’t necessarily end when the day ends. The bread might last for days. It’s just an adjective, relating to the noun.
The eonian God, of course is “eternal” as we understand that English word (eternal). But how delightful knowing that God is concerned with the eons He made in Christ, in his Son, — concerned enough with our role and experience in the the eons, especially “the current wicked eon” to call Himself “the eonian God”…. (Rom 16:26).
Now, Eric appealed to “the Bible” as his source of authority. But, he failed to mention “which” bible…. As there are at least 5 or 6 “bibles” out there which have cleared up this problematic word “eternal” — and replaced it with the more correct word “eon” or “eonian”.
A few of those bibles consistently use “age” or “age-lasting” — instead of “eternal” or “forever” or “everlasting”… But at least they are consistent.
All the popular bibles, are very inconsistent. They translate “aion” (noun) and “aionious” (adjective) by many different words: eternal, age, world, never, everlasting, forever, and ever, etc.
Oh how wonderful to discover one of the Bible translations that uses consistency regarding this word (aion)… the picture of God and God’s love becomes every more clear when you study from one of these.
Eric insists that it’s either Endless torment, or annihilation but it CANNOT BE that God loves all and intends to save all.
But why?
I think Eric loves and worships HUMAN FREEWILL more than he does God’s operation of grace and God’s eonian purpose.
Does God honor man’s stubborn will?
Not really. God gave man a stubborn will. (See Romans 11:32— “God locks up all together in stubbornness that He might have mercy on all.)
Oops… here’s that word “all” again… Will Eric have a problem with the idea that “God locks up ALL in stubbornness”??? Perhaps.
Those who worship HUMAN FREEWILL tend to ignore any scripture that reveals God’s causality in all things.
You see, those who worship HUMAN FREEWILL, clearly don’t want to blame God for this business of endless conscious punishment… they hope it might be endless annihilation… but in no way will they allow God to be blamed for man’s nasty endless destiny.
Never mind God’s will. It’s man’s will that is most precious and most honored… according to them.
The other day, on one of the freewiller’s channels… I was prattling about God’s purpose and plan to bring all home… and one of the sidebar commenters said my idea was not good, as it would be like a “forced” marriage. You know, like if you ask a girl to marry you and she says “NO”… and the commenter did not like my idea that God is God… and man’s will is not all that.
Well, his metaphor was weak, as history seems to show that arranged marriages work better than the American system of “twooooo love”.
Never mind.
The fact is… the scriptures often show that man’s will and effort are not designed to accomplish much.
(Romans 8:20-21, Eph 1:11, Romans 11:32, Romans 11:36, Romans 9:16, 18, etc. )
So, when Eric and the boys prattle on about man’s precious and Almighty “freewill”… I’m not buying it.
Yes, man has a will, but so what? It’s not “free” of influence and causality. And guess what… We believe God. We believe God is the ultimate in influence and causality.
Apart from God… you get nothing.
Acts 17:25, 28… in Him we live and breath and have our being. He gives life and breath and all to all.
Eric and the boys have a mythology. It’s based on a mixture of ancient Babylonian religion and inferences from poor translations of the Bible. It’s a mythology that any 12-year old kid would come up with to spook you at story time. That there is this “God” who got creation started but somehow lost control of it all, and now offers one last “chance” to creation to save itself, and if creation doesn’t do the right thing, there’s endless hell-fire awaiting the poor sinner.
Cheesy.
B-movie roll.
Godzilla? Gamera? King Kong?
Yeah, B-movie scripts.
But, as I see the picture… This is big budget, A-list, award-winning story telling by God and His Son.
Yes, the film looks dark at the moment… but the plot thickens and thickens… and don’t tell anyone… (SPOILER ALERT)… but… all creation comes home to the Father… and God becomes all in all.
Now I brought this up with Eric… and he flipped.
The reference is in I Cor 15:20-28… where it says that God will become all in all…. And Eric, peeled away any meaning and depth of that verse to suggest that God will be all ONLY in “all who are left”… as the vast majority (he says) will be in hell or the lake of fire, or somewhere unpleasant… for ever, and ever, and ever, etc.
But… I Cor 15:28 is a really cool Bible verse… and promises so much more than we can understand… and it’s all good, you see.
In fact, I’m quite sure that “all in all” are the three biggest words ever written in any book anywhere.
That God will be all…. in all… oh my.
Note to Eric: God will not be all in some.
Note to Eric: God will not be some in all.
Note to Eric: God will not be some in some.
Note to Eric: God will be all… in all. Check it out dude. So we come along and we’re trying to see God. And Eric and his boys want us to focus, not on God, but on man and man’s FREEWILL. I used to do that. For years and years…I was sure that endless hell and HUMAN FREEWILL were clearly taught in the Bible… Well one day… I stumbled on I Timothy 4:10 … “God is the savior of all mankind, especially of believers”… And guess what… it does NOT say EXCLUSIVELY of believers… It says “especially”… and I knew in my heart that “especially” put a temporary emphasis on things but not a permanent one.
If I Timothy had said “exclusively” of believers, I would have comfortably stayed in my evangelical, fundamentalist bubble.
But when I laid my eyes on I Tim 4:10… for the first time… I was ruined. It was only a matter of time… before I came to embrace the God who IS the savior of all.
So Eric and his boys pretend to be bible teachers… but if you hop over to I Tim 4:10 your eyes just might fall on the next verse… which clearly says to teach the very thing you just read in verse 10… and lawd have mercy… those guys DO NOT teach that God is the savior of all. They don’t casually use that phrase… and carefully avoid it.
But I LOVE verse 10… So, let me repeat it here for your thrills and entertainment…
I Timothy 4:10: We rely on the living God, who is the savior of all mankind, especially of believers.
the living God, who is the savior of all
the living God, who is the savior of all
the living God, who is the savior of all
the living God, who is the savior of all
the living God, who is the savior of all
the living God, who is the savior of all
the living God, who is the savior of all
the living God, who is the savior of all If I did all that cut and paste on someone else’s channel they’d bust me for “scrolling”… but I think it’s such a cool bible verse… I just love it. I Timothy 4:10… tell everyone you know.
The problem with Eric and the freewillers, is they are not SEEING and ADORING God… they are so very focused on the human and the human’s beloved little freewill. It’s like self worship, kind of.
As I see the plan and purpose of God, humans are only part of the picture. God intends to reconcile and restore all creation. We’re just a small part of the show.
See Colossians 1:20. And Ephesians 1, 2 and 3.
Wow… almost 6 a.m.
Coffee refill time….
5:58 a.m.
Eric also had a hard on for “time limits” in God’s operations. I suggested to Eric that the words “TOO LATE” are not in the Bible. And he freaked. He insisted that God does put time limits on His offer of Grace.
I couldn’t respond properly to this popular mythology, as Eric was talking over me, with a vengeance. But I can do so now… you see, the concept of “TOO LATE” is not in the Bible. Why? Because God is the author of time itself. (See Hebrews 1:2) And because — come closer… this is the really cool insight regarding this “too late” business….
“Too Late” is not in the Bible because God is not “offering” grace. If God “offered” grace, there might be a time limit on the deal. But NO, God operates in Grace and does not nor can He “offer” grace.
You see, if you “offer” grace, then “grace” is no longer “grace”. It’s a contract. It’s a deal. It’s a bargain. It’s something you EARN by keeping up your end of the deal.
Let me repeat… if “grace” is “offered”… it’s a deal and not a gracious thing.
But if God OPERATES IN GRACE… then there are no time limits on God’s operations.
Note to Eric and the boys:
— Grace is the unearned favor of God.
Note to Eric and the boys:
— Grace is the undeserved favor of God.
Note to Eric and the boys:
— Grace is the unmerited favor of God.
Note to Eric and the boys:
— Grace is Grace. Not a bargaining chip.
Note to Eric and the boys:
— If God merely “offers” grace… as you say… then you’ve reduced the great God of Heaven and Earth to a Time-Share Real Estate salesman.
And a Time-Share salesman MUST put time limits on the “offer”… if you don’t accept his “offer”… soon enough, he will say “IT’S TOO LATE”… and move on to the next prospective customer for his wares.
Brother Lawrence just made a good point: Love NEVER FAILS… also suggests you can’t use TOO LATE in the plan and purpose of God.
Note to Eric and the boys:
— Christ died for all.
Note to Eric and the boys:
— Christ died for all SIN, including the sin of not believing He died for all sin.
(I have to point this out, as Eric was insistent that YES, Christ died for all sin, but you must BELIEVE He died for all sin.)…
I didn’t have the chance to point out the nuttiness of this idea… as Eric was quite excitable… but listen… If Christ died for all sin… then He also died for the sin of not believing He died for all sin.
And if Eric’s take on the matter is true, that would mean YOU’RE NOT SAVED by Christ’s death on the cross… instead, you’re saved by YOUR BELIEF IN HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS.
DO YOU see the idea here?
Eric believes in his belief.
Eric trusts in his trust.
Eric has faith in his faith.
For… it’s not Christ’s work on the cross that saves you (according to Eric and the boys) but it’s your proper response to that work on the cross.
Eric and the boys would have you believe that it’s a free gift that you “must” receive, or else it’s meaningless.
Let’s say someone gave you a “free” brand new, Tesla car… they put it in your drive way… keys, title, paid the insurance on it… everything. It’s sitting there in your driveway… it’s yours. It’s a free gift…
What the hell is Eric on about… “you must receive it”… ??? Talk about non-sense. It’s sitting in your driveway… keys, title… everything… it’s just a matter of time… before you go out and smell the “new car smell”… and start ‘er up… and drive around the block. There’s no way in hell you’re going to NOT be able to “receive” the free gift.
Eric and his pals are just in love with pagan myths. Hell is not endless. God is love, dude. Check it out.
“Too late” indeed.
God, who created time itself (Hebrews 1:2) and the purpose of time (Ephesians 3:11) also can change the rules to suit himself. Eric’s insistence on endless hell for the sinner… is… well… stupid and childish… as I see the thing.
Ok… I think I’ve covered the main topics of my conversation with that dude.
1. He had a problem with AION being age or eonian.
2. He was sure that God has to respect man’s itty bitty freewill… and cannot go against man’s will.
3. He was sure that human destiny will be either ENDLESS PUNISHMENT… or ETERNAL ANNIHILATION but not UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION… oh no… we can have the bad… but not the good.
That’s it… the simple mythology of the ancient Babylonian empire, dress up in christian garb.
I try to teach that the Bible is not a “road map” to guide your life… but instead it’s an itinerary of where we’re all going.
“On the left, you’ll see the cross…”
“On the right, you’ll see the resurrection…”
“In a few moments, we’ll come up on the 1,000 year reign of Christ…”
“Refreshments are at the back of the car.”
God’s purpose is — I want to say it’s “clear”… but I know most folks don’t get God’s purpose. So, it’s not “clear” to all. But it is “get-able” … you can get and see God’s purpose. And it’s not to create billions and then toss them into hell forever.
His purpose is revealed in Christ’s cross. A horrible death, and then, 3 days later, a resurrection from the dead UNABLE to die again. And if you’re UNABLE TO DAY… EVERYTHING changes… attitudes, especially.
You see, dying and mortality are not only man’s enemy but God’s enemy. (See I Corinthians 15:22-28) There it says “Death, the last enemy, is being abolished”.
Death is God’s “enemy” because it keeps us (us dead ones) apart from the tender heart of God. And one day… death will be abolished and all made alive in Christ. Oh my.
Christ died for all… and God was happy with Christ’s “offering”… You see, nothing was “offered” to man, but Christ was “offered” to God. And the proof that God accepted Christ’s offering is that He raised His boy from the dead. This changes everything.
You “must” believe for it is true. Not to make it true… it is true.
Grace to you.
Tuesday… 6:47 a.m.
Ace.
ROMANS 8
20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
The Ace Theological Company 