Some time ago, I got into a little dust up over who is the savior, God, or man? with a fellow named Robert Brake.
Robert believes that man saves himself by his own actions and choices. I believe God is the savior. I started out, as I recall, by asking Robert if I TIM 4:10 is a “faithful saying” or not? The conversation was longer, but I did capture some of it… and pasted it in below.
Let me know what you think.
HE SAID THE LAKE OF FIRE IS FINAL.
- Christ, the redeemer’s actions are more final than that.
- You were saved, when he died for you… long before you BELIEVED. AND one day, every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess… and no one can confess, except by holy spirit… so says St. Paul.
- Robert Brake sent the following messages at 5:52 PM
According to your argument people are wasting their time trying to be saved as they are guaranteed to be saved no matter what they do.
Those names not written in the book of life will not be saved
- linwood austin sent the following messages at 7:22 PM
You said… “trying to be saved”…. ???? Are you saying you are saved by what you do? If that’s the case, then, you’re not saved by His death and Resurrection. And if you’re not saved by His death and resurrection, then He died in vain. If He did NOT save us when He died to save us, why believe He died to save us… If you’re saved by what you “TRY” to do… then you must indeed save yourself… and thus, God is not your saviour, you are. See I TIM 4:10… We rely on the living God, who is the saviour of all man, especially of believers. (Not “exclusively” of believers… but “especially” … The word “especially” and the word “exclusively” are not the same thing.
- You are not saved “by what you do” but by what He did.
- Robert Brake sent the following messages at 7:25 PM
As John 3:3 states: John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Repentance and being baptized by full submersion in water in the name of Jesus Christ is the washing away of sins by water and the blood of Jesus. It is dying in Jesus Christ. It is also the only way to receive the Holy Spirit which is being reborn in the Spirit of Christ To be born again one must first die in Christ. Baptism in water is dying in Christ: Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. When you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost(Spirit) then you are born again. Baptism with full submersion in water unto remission of sins is an absolute requirement. Even the Lord Jesus Christ was baptized by John the Baptist. Did he really need to be? He was the sacrificial lamb. The lamb was brought to the priest and washed. The baptism of Jesus was the washing of the sacrifice.
According to you everyone is saved, the Bible says otherwise.
- linwood austin sent the following messages at 7:28 PM
I Tim 2:4- God wills all to be saved and come to a knowledge of truth. Eph 1:11- God works all after the council of His will.
- Phil 2:9-11- Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord. I Cor 12:3- Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit.
- Robert Brake sent the following messages at 7:31 PM
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Those cast into the lake of fire are gone forever, they are not saved.
- linwood austin sent the following message at 7:47 PM
Robert, The reason this is an important discussion is this… We are talking about the accomplishments of God, in the death and Resurrection of Christ. I’m saying what was achieved on the cross was vast. You seem to be saying, it has limits. YES… or NO… Did he died to save all?
- Robert Brake sent the following message at 7:49 PM
Not all can be saved. Those names not in the book of life are beyond redemption and that is why they are not in the “Book of Life”
- linwood austin sent the following messages at 7:49 PM
Yes… or No… Did He die to save all?
- Robert Brake sent the following message at 7:52 PM
Your logic indicates that people can do whatever they want to whoever they want whenever they want because they are already “saved”.
- linwood austin sent the following messages at 7:53 PM
Yes or No? did he die to save all?
- Robert Brake sent the following message at 7:55 PM
He died to save those that could be saved and not all can. God knew that before creation.
- linwood austin sent the following messages at 7:56 PM
So, you’re saying NO, he did not die to save all.
- 1 Timothy 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners–of whom I am the worst.
- He did not come into the world to save a few sinners.
- He came to save sinners. Even the worst.
- It’s a TRUSTWORTHY saying
- Do you trust this saying?
- I trust this TRUSTWORTHY saying.
- Robert Brake sent the following message at 8:00 PM
You do not understand God’s Word and twist it to mean what you want not what it really is.
- linwood austin sent the following messages at 8:00 PM
Here is a trustworthy saying
- Here is a trustworthy saying
- Here is a trustworthy saying
- Christ came into the world to save.
- Not to do a halfass job of it.
- Robert Brake sent the following message at 8:01 PM
Repeat that all you want but it will not give you understanding
- linwood austin sent the following messages at 8:02 PM
Did you know that the word AION shows up in the new testament 193 times?
- It’s a TIME word
- If it shows up that many times, don’t you think we should study to see what this TIME word really means?
- Several times the bible has this phrase: THE END OF THE AION
- THE END OF THE AIONS
- If the AIONS come to an end, as the bible says… Heb 9:26 and Matt 13:39… then the word MUST have LIMITS… and in it has a BEGINING and an END.
- Robert Brake sent the following messages at 8:08 PM
You don’t want the Word of God, you only want your version of it. You version allows evil back into the world. It allows Satan and death back into the world
Tell me, why would God allow that?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring … … I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. … I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending …
- GOD CREATED EVIL
- Evil is not out of his control
- Robert Brake sent the following message at 8:10 PM
You don’t know what you are talking about so this conversation is over.
- linwood austin sent the following messages at 8:10 PM
Death, the last enemy will be abolished. See I Cor 15: 25
- death is the wages of sin
- It will be abolished
- Robert Brake sent the following messages at 8:12 PM
Death is tossed into the lake of fire. All things tossed into the lake of fire are destroyed forever and that includes those name not written in the book of life
You have no understanding of the second death
- linwood austin sent the following messages at 8:13 PM
This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
- Apparently you don’t believe this is a FAITHFUL SAYING… cause you don’t accept it.
- I TIM… 4 VERSE 9 AND 10
Robert.. you’ll love this chart…
…you can enlarge it.. if you click on it… I think… if not, you can find this calendar over at
http://www.concordant.org just go there and search for “divine calendar”. They have two of them.
The Savoiur of All Fellowship, had this to say about Robert’s point of view:
If it were me, and I know you’ve touched on this, is I would tell him that those not in the book of life will in fact go into death again.
But we are assured that that death will one day be abolished.
The apostle Paul saw way beyond John’s Revelation.
In Revelation Christ is still reigning, there are kings on the new earth, there are sovereignties, authorities and power and death.
In 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, Paul sees beyond Revelation when he prophetically states that Christ will quit reigning, all sovereignty, authority and power will be annulled and death abolished and THEN God will be All in all, not All in some.
They are in that death only for an “ever” and another “ever” commonly referred to as “for ever and ever.” Literally, this is “for the eons OF the eons. Since the Bible tells us all the eons end, both individually and collectively, the second death cannot possibly be eternal. And if it were eternal, how could God be All in all?